Jamey
Hey everybody, welcome back to another episode of Trackside the Podcast. I'm Jamey Osborne.

Jessica
And I'm Jessica Althoff.

Jamey
We have not disappeared or pod faded as I used to hear the word. No, no, we're still here. We've just been super busy since our last episode. Jessica and I have been literally swept up weekend to weekend with racing and other things going on. So it's been a while. I apologize for that, but glad to be back and still here, still doing good. You still doing good, Jess?

Jessica
yeah yeah it's been busy we were we were both racing or at races for like multiple consecutive weekends i think after our last recording and then you know other trips and other things so um yes it's been a minute but we're glad to be back and this is a really cool episode we have today so i don't know yes definitely um should we mention who it is it's gonna be oh absolutely charlie kimball who is a that he's our our first pro race car driver guest our first guest where we actually could research him he has a wikipedia page he has he has lots of uh articles about him we were able to be proper podcasters and actually proper journalists whatever and actually do some research um such a cool guy you know we both met him and he'll talk about this that he has such a hard time saying no this year because he's popping up everywhere but i i don't Jamey correct me if i'm wrong i had never met him until the arlington grand prix that we talked about previously on an episode um where he they were there with the GR Cup where he was a race director that was the first time meeting him and then we proceeded to see him like two or three other times

Jamey
yeah i didn't meet him in Arlington because I wasn't in race control, but, um, I met him in the SRO weekend because I was working in, in race control. And then he was back the next weekend working for USAC.

Jessica
And so it was like, Charlie, we're seeing you more often than we're seeing our families. And we got to talking and, you know, as you're going to hear in the interview, he's very, um, very well spoken and communicates that very well in race control. He's, you know, authoritative, but he's knowledgeable and he, you know, will explain things and, you know, he's just a nice guy, you know, but, uh, it was been really great to get to know him because I was an IndyCar fan. Well, I still am, you know, to a degree, I don't follow it like I used to, but, you know, I followed IndyCar pretty heavily in the, you know, the, the late nineties, the early two thousands and the 2010s really up until when I started to marshal and, you know, Charlie Kimball was driving then and he drove that orange and blue Novo Nordisk car. And, you know, everyone that followed IndyCar at the time knew that he was the driver with diabetes. And we, my, our podcast listeners will be shocked to know that this will not be you know a two-hour interview with Charlie Kimball but we could have see easily filled that two hours we just didn't get him for that long so we didn't get to talk about all of that stuff but the great guy great driver and he uses his knowledge of racing and his familiarity with the racing scene from the driver's side and he brings that into his new calling of being a race director. And I think that's, you know, we obviously, since we've just recorded that and we're talking about it now, you know, he's going to spend the bulk of his time talking about that kind of thing. But that's why we thought he would be such a great guest for the podcast is because of that unique background, not unique, but, you know, very specialized background and he's a great guy and Charlie Kimball our guest for the first episode back for a while for Trackside the podcast for Marshals.

Jamey
All right our first guest after we're back for a while is well known to american audiences particularly those who follow indycar pretty closely but he's still quite active in the racing community, even though he's not an active race car driver anymore. He's Charlie Kimball. And Charlie has got a great story and he's still very, very heavily involved in racing. And Charlie Kimball, welcome to the podcast.

Charlie
Yeah, thanks for having me, guys.

Jamey
So this is a great story. You're our first driver to, uh, make an appearance pro driver, I should say. Um, you know, and, and you've got a great story. We always begin our podcast by asking our guests, tell us your origin story. How did you get involved in racing and how did it begin you on the path to where we are today?

Charlie
Well, the, the elevator speech is I was born into it. Um, my dad is a very successful mechanical engineer. Um, and I was actually born in the UK when he was in the design office at McLaren Formula One lived in Italy when he was chief designer at Ferrari. Um, he not only was in the design office, but race engineered world champions. He helped design the 80 and 82 Indy 500 race winners. So I grew up watching it. In fact, uh, my mom loves to embarrass me and tell the story of me running up and kissing the TV. I saw my dad, uh, on the grand prix broadcast when we were watching on Sundays. Fortunately, I've outgrown that. And so I was always exposed to racing. And one of the things, you know, this is a little jumping ahead and foreshadowing, but those years just absorbing motorsports through sitting at my dad's knee and seeing drawings and design, but then watching and hearing and talking about it, um, has given me a real depth of institutional knowledge that continues to surprise me actually comes up every now and again and shocks me. But when, after we were done living in Europe and moved back to the States, we're from Southern California. And despite being a very successful engineer, and my mom, a very successful mathematician, my dad's family's in farming. And my sister and I are sixth generation avocado and citrus farmers in Ventura County in Southern California.

So that's where our roots literally run very deep. And after racing and engineering, my dad did some design work for a company called Metalor out of El Segundo. And they did really high-end parts. They did the hinges for the bay doors on the space shuttle. They did drive shafts and uprights and hubs and wheel nuts for Indy cars, for sports cars and endurance cars, for motorcycle projects. In fact, my dad was the first one and Metalor was the first one to produce the splined wheel nut that most single hub motorsports use today. So it's claim to fame. Also, when my dad was at Ferrari, helped design the first semi-automatic sequential gearbox. So that really, I was born into it. And when we came back to the States, I started go-karting and it started because my dad for Christmas one year gave me the go-kart. He used to drive around the farm when he was a kid. And so it had sat in a barn and, and fallen into disrepair. And so he and I worked on it together and got it powder coated and painted and new engine. And we went down to a go-kart shop in Van Nuys by the name of Pitts Performance. And I saw my first ever racing go-kart and fell in love. And it took me six or eight months to convince my parents it was a good idea. I think they still regret that. But bought a racing go-kart and we'd put it in the back of my dad's range pickup and go to the local Jim Hall's Kart Track here in Oxnard, California, right on the beach. My mom and sister would come out, we'd have a picnic and turned out I was pretty good. Escalated things escalated as they are prone to do in racing from there. And all of a sudden I was racing go-karts all over the U.S., even in Barrie, Canada. I never went more international than the Barrie race in Canada. I never went and did the European karting scene. But on my 16th birthday, I got into a Formula Ford 1600 for the first time. And I remember that day like it was yesterday. My dad said he could my smile before I'd taken my helmet off. And I knew that's, I knew then that's what I wanted to do. But all through high school, my parents had a rule that I had to give really good grades because they said, if this racing driving malarkey doesn't turn into a career, you want to make sure you can go to college and get a real job one day. So when I graduated high school, I was accepted to Stanford University for their engineering program. And my friends and a lot of people all thought I was crazy, but I turned him down and moved on my own to go race cars in Europe. Did British formula Ford, British formula three with Carlin, Europe formula three and competed against guys like Sebastian Vettel and Kaz Nakajima. And who did I see? I did it against him in formula three and now he's running the Toyota sports car program. Not Nakajima. Anyways, one of my competitors in Euro F3 won a race there. And then in 2007, hit a bit of a speed bump when I was racing in the World Series by Renault. Into the late summer, throughout the summer, things started to go off track, if you'll pardon the pun. And I was making a lot of mistakes, crashing, spinning, very atypical of me as a driver. and I ended up going to the doctor because I had this skin rash on my arm. And he asked if there's anything else going on in my health. And I said, I'm 22, I'm 10 feet tall and bulletproof. And then I mentioned I had been kind of thirsty and I was drinking six, eight, 10 bottles of water a night. I was going to the bathroom all the time. He had me get on his scales. And after being weighed at the racetrack, I knew what I was supposed to weigh. And in just five days, I'd lost 25 pounds. And, you know, as an athlete, I didn't really have 25 pounds to lose. So that at that point, you know, he thought something more serious was going on. And I got diagnosed with type one diabetes, missed the last two rounds of the World Series by Renault Championship and figured out what diabetes meant for me as a person, as a racing driver, as an athlete, got back in the car and my first race back with diabetes, I finished second and second out of 30 of the best young drivers in the world at the time. at Hockenheim in a Formula 3 Euro Series car run by Prima. And from there, spent a couple of years in then Indy Lights, now Indy Next, back here in the U.S. in 2009, 2010. And then made my rookie year, rookie debut in IndyCar and made history as the first licensed driver with diabetes to race the Indy 500 in May of 2011. Over 150 IndyCar starts, race win, one race win at Mid-Ohio in 2013, which I love because we won by going fast, right? Like we did an extra pit stop. There's no fuel saving. It was qualifying laps all afternoon, all day long. That's the way you wanted to win, especially at Mid-Ohio. Still hold the track record at Texas Motor Speedway after they reprofiled it. I sat on pole and held the track record. Anytime you beat Scott Dixon to a mile and a half pole position when he's in a team car, it feels really good. But was, you know, had great finishes, the Indy 500, third, fifth, was leading with 30 to go when the engine blew up. Not that I wake up in cold sweats in the middle of winter thinking about that one. But had a great career. My wife was alongside with me the whole time. She and I went to high school together. We were friends in high school, started dating when I came back from Europe. She moved to Indiana with me. We got married in Indianapolis. Both our kids were born at Methodist Hospital there in downtown Indy. We like to call ourselves Californian Hoosiers because our roots are here in California, but we definitely grew and blossomed in Indiana. And then when I was done driving, my last IndyCar race was September of 21 at Long Beach. We finished the season at Long Beach in 21 because of COVID and pandemic impact. And that was the last time I drove. And in the time of figuring out what I was going to do when we moved back to California, I get a call from Tony Koppman. and I remember very vividly I was sitting in the parking lot after dropping my kids off at school and he goes Charlie Kibble what are you doing and I said trying to figure out what I want to be when I grow up because I got to play with race cars for a lot of years and now I don't know what I want to be and he said well why don't you come be a steward for some USF races they can line up with your indie lights broadcasting gig you can you know sometimes you double dip on weekends get you up in a race control, I think you'd be really good at that. Um, you know, and I, with that role in race control of the USF pro championships, I was seated alongside guys like Bo Barfield, Johnny Unser, Joel Miller, who I competed against go-karts with way back in the nineties. Um, some of my young colleagues in race control like to say, Oh, you mean back in the 1900s? Yeah. Yeah. Back in the 1990s, I raced go-karts against Joel. So I was in a very comfortable situation and realized I enjoyed being a part of managing races because of that institutional knowledge really came out. And from there, it's grown and I enjoy it. I love being at the racetrack. It still feels like home. And while I don't know that I will put a helmet back on for an Indy 500 or 24 hours of Daytona, 24 hours of Le Mans, anything like that, I'm not ruling out getting back in a car for something sometime. If it's a Zenith racing series or a chump car event or even just going out and doing some track day and some coaching stuff. But that's kind of how I went from kissing the TV when I saw my dad during Formula One Grand Prix's to the Indianapolis 500, winning at Mid-Ohio, being a part of a team that won the Rolex 24 at Daytona in 2013. And now moving into from broadcasting and moving into race control. So this year has been really busy and continues to be busy. I think I forgot how to say no, but we'll talk about all the different things I've, I've touched this year. And it's, uh, it's a lot of fun. I realize one of the things I think of driving and professional motor sports is people underestimate how much of a team sport it is. And I think running a race and race control, you know, my friends here in California that I play tennis with are like, well, okay, I sort of get what you did. I've heard of the Indy 500, but what is race control? What is a race director? What does that look like? What does that mean? And I'm like, well, some series it's like air traffic control and being a referee all at the same time. And they're like, Oh, okay. I think I understand what that looks like now. So it's, it can be hard to explain, but it can also be really fulfilling. Um, and the feedback loop is, it's pretty instant because teams and drivers, team owners, team managers, drivers, they'll tell you what they think about the job you did real quickly.

Jessica
Yeah, that's, that's such an awesome story. I know that was a very nutshell version, but, uh, thank you for giving that overview. So kind of what you were just saying is people don't really know what you do if they're not, you know, from a racing background. So you're currently, we met you earlier this year and then it was funny. We met you and then we saw you like every weekend or like three week, three races in a row. And we're going to see you again a few more times. Um, you're, you're everywhere, which is awesome. It's been a pleasure working with you, of course. Can you tell people about kind of what a race director role? Like, can you maybe delve into that a little bit more of kind of what you do there?

Charlie
Yeah. So if you look at it through the perspective of air traffic control, right, the race control room manages everything that happens where race cars are. Everything from the pre-grid where cars are staged, they come out of tents or garages, go get lined up, and then get organized, go onto the racetrack, line up in pit lane, and then are released in anger onto the racetrack. All of that from getting from the pre-grid to the pit lane, pit lane to the racetrack, back to pit lane, and back to the paddock is all within the purview of race control. And as a race director, ideally, you don't do anything, right? Your team handles it. Now, there are some places where because of the series itself, I am the team, right? I typically, I learned very quickly, I can't do it all in race control. So I almost won't operate without a communicator, you know, someone who is telling over the radio to the teams what's going on. And a lot of times that looks like a communication about we're five minutes from pre-grid opening, five minutes from pre-grid closing, we're five minutes, we're one minute from transiting to pit lane. Okay, let's get lined up. Okay, pit lane is open. The track is green. You know, the course is open for practice qualifying. Okay, talking to the pace car. All of those interactions, every management piece that happens on the racetrack starts at the race director. You know, it's all kind of, if you think about a hierarchy of responsibility, it starts with the race director. And ideally, everything gets managed below, but there's sometimes it's where the buck stops. You know, you sort of, you end up not focusing on one single thing. So if you have someone who is communicating with the marshals, that is one source of information that happens from the eyes and ears all around the racetrack. If you have someone that is dispatching safety, you know, if it's interveners that they, the way they do it a little differently on an international level or on a national series here in the U S sending out safety trucks and cleanup crews and dispatching ambulances, all of that thing, all of those, uh, dispatches happen with another role. and they sit typically directly under the race director. They also have a communicator. So they're listening and working with and figuring out, when are we turning the lights off on the pace car? And when do we tell the pace car, hey, we got to turn the lights off because we're getting ready to go for a restart. But they have to learn or they have to listen and be ready for the information that's coming from the safety dispatch and the marshals and the cleanup and the teams and pit lane, right? If you get a kerfuffle that's happened in pit lane, you're waiting for your pit lane team to tell you what's happening there. And when you are race director, most of the race controls I operate in have a race director and then a stewards. And the race director is air traffic control. And the stewards are the referees and the umpires. Now, typically, and the way I've seen it operate, and I think is pretty successful, quantitative penalties that are speeding in pit lane, too many crew working on the car, things like that, the race director can send the penalty to the stewards and say, hey, they spent in pit lane, this is a penalty. No extenuating circumstances. They just broke the rules. They deserve the penalty. Now, anything that's qualitative, contact, jumpstarts, false starts, things like that. I typically refer to the stewards, you know, and someone said this the other day and it makes a lot of sense to me. It's a little like calling, you know, the World Cup this summer. It's a little like going to the VAR, right? The video assisted replay. Part of it is also like going to New York and their video replay, right? They've got more screens. They've got more time. because typically you refer something to the stewards while you're cleaning up a mess, right? If there is someone that causes an incident, throw dive bombs down the inside, wipes out a couple of cars as a race director, I'm like, oh yeah, that's going to the stewards. Hey, this, this incident's under review. That's, that's kind of all I have to do. Put it under review. The stewards review it and then come back to me a lot of times in really good rooms I work in, we'll review it, right? Like, they'll go, okay, here's where we are. And there's some times where I, as race director, who have been watching how the race is developing and the culture, and also know exactly how I brief the drivers in the driver's meeting, can give some background to the stewards. I could say they were like oh yeah he just kind of got it like for example at COTA into turn one there's a big bump way down the inside under the brake zone and like you're coming up the straight and it looks as wide as fifth avenue right it's massive you could go 10 wide it feels like into there but there's a big bump on the inside now i brief in the driver's briefing i said guys be aware yeah you can pass down the inside but if you get it wrong on the brunt on the bumps and everyone funnels down to the apex and you wipe out three cars i've warned you about the bump the penalty is going to be stiffer if you ignore that warning and so there are times where the stewards would be like oh bye he just hit the bump and kind of got it wrong and i was like guys i warned him about that and they're like oh okay we need to be a little more adamant in our penalty firmer in the response because they were prepared and they ignored it. Right. Yeah. Um, and I send that to the stewards and then I go back to working with my team to get the incident cleaned up safe to get the cars off track. You know, if there's a car that's lightly damaged, most of the series that I am working in our development series, their ladder series on the way up to the pro level. But they're very often just as expensive as a lot of other series, right? People are still spending money. If it's sponsors, if it's families, if it's teams. So I still try and bring the same level of approach and professionalism and standard that I would expect to see from an IndyCar, an IMSA, a WEC, a Formula One race control, an international go-kart event. You know, bring that same level of professionalism. Now, how penalties and how coaching and mentorship happens after the races, I think I try and tailor for the level of series. You know, I talked about the USF Pro Championships. They have juniors, they have F2000, and they have pros. And from pros, you step right into IndyNext, right into an IMSA LMP2. You know, you step up to a real pro level. If there's a penalty in pros, we kind of go, hey, man, like, you got to clean this up because that won't fly beyond here. Juniors, it's like, okay, what'd you see? What were you thinking? Here's what I would, you know, there's a little more education and coaching as a part of that from a race control side. You know, and honestly, USAC called me to fulfill a role as race director at Road America for the Radical Cup. I finished out the year. I had a couple of conflicts at the end of the year. But this year, I'm full-time race director for them. Came off a pretty challenging weekend at Road America and had a really good conversation in the driver's meeting at Road Atlanta, the next event. And said, look, here's – I showed onboards. And I typically don't show other people's onboards without clearing it with them. But I showed onboards of three or four incidents and said, look, this is what I looked at. This is why I made this a no call. This is why this was a drive through. This is why everyone in the paddock thought this should be like I should kick the guy out of the series and take his license away. But I called it a racing incident. And here's why. And I was really nervous. I will admit, like, I was really nervous about how that conversation was going to go. And everyone went, yeah, I watched the onboard and went, yeah, I make the same call. I hadn't seen the onboard. And I was like, I, a lot of times I have a lot more data and information to look at than any one perspective. Um, and I think psychologically I'm pretty prepared for how a race weekend goes right In race control, it's, you know, prep 45 minutes of chaos and super intense. And you're dealing with a lot of inputs and managing a lot of things. And, you know, because a lot of times sessions get busy, right? You're dealing with an incident, trying to get it cleaned up, get back green, managing how much time's left, you know, figuring out where to put cars, all these things. And then after the session, you get to breathe, you kind of review, go back to the paddock, talk to teams, get a little chance to rest, prep for the next session. go again. Same as when I was driving, exact same psychological cadence as when I was in the cockpit. So I think my body is naturally and psychologically naturally prepared for a lot of that. It sounds to me like you've got, you know, there's been a couple of race directors in my experience working in race control Dakota that, you know, have had pro experience like years. And I'm thinking of Scott Goodyear because Scott Goodyear was for many years the Formula 4 race director in America. And we'd see him in that capacity numerous times at COTA. Do you think it makes a difference to the drivers when they are in that setting with you, like you were just describing, that they're hearing it from, do you think it kind of gives you a different way of, I guess, a different level of authority based on the fact that you were a driver and that you do know what it was like to sit in their seat, not to disparage any of the other race directors who don't have pro experience, but you and Scott have very unique situation that you can bring into that kind of discussion. I think so, yeah. I think there's an additional credibility i also think um i'm realizing there's a lot of education that i missed right like like i am learning a lot right i'm i'm part of different um i gotta be careful how i say this a little bit can't say but i am in a few different uh study sessions for how races are run globally right if it's as a steward and a referee, or if it's as a race director, if it's as a clerk of the course that manages all of the elements on the racetrack for these sort of international events that pop in and pop out, you know, there's a lot of that foundational institutional knowledge on how it runs behind the scenes that I never got. And so there are like, You know, I'd love to name names, I guess, of my favorite race directors, and some of them are former drivers. And some of my other favorite race directors, all they ever did was a little bit of karting, maybe. But they've been around it and watched and are students of the sport. It's a phrase that Dario Franchini talks about a lot, is being sort of a student of racing. And when I talk about institutional knowledge, for example, I was, I was one, one of my, we'll probably go through all seven different series I'm working in this year for 22 weekends between March 1st and November 1st. Again, I forgot how to say no this year was one of the roles that I filled was calling strategy for the 51 card Jacob Abel at the Indy 500. And it was, you know, an Indy Lights team, their family team. They had really experienced people on it. But one of the roles I fulfilled, not only on the timing stand, when I am talking to Jacob and talking to the mechanics and engineers and talking to the spotters, but was talking within the garage to all the mechanics, he hears what to expect. And one of the questions, qualifying weekend, okay, it all got rained out. So the schedule just kind of went out the window and it changed, which was unfortunate. But I said, okay, I briefed him Friday. I said, okay, if the weather's good, whatever, here's what it looks like. Here are all the steps. Here are things, here are pain points. And the checkered flag, the gun goes off at 5.55 PM. If we are on track, we get to finish our run. If we have not left pit lane and the gun goes off, we're done. And it is not 6 p.m. It is 5.55. And they were like, how do you like I see it on the schedule, but why? And I said, well, it used to be 6 p.m. Forever. It was 10 to 6, open track, qualifying, practice, everything during the month of May. Back when my dad was there in the 70s and 80s. Then it was noon to 6. And then a couple of years ago, TV had a network window for qualifying. and they requested the gun went off five minutes early to finish qualifying. So if someone had just started their run, it'd be about three or four minutes. They'd be done by two minutes before six. They could get an interview with whoever was fastest. They could actually get an interview. And it was one of the reasons James Hinchcliffe did not qualify for the Indy 500 the year he didn't qualify. James is a friend. He officiated our wedding. I remember that vividly. So like when I talk about institutional knowledge, I'm like, oh, yeah, I forgot. I knew how that got there. So when I'm calling a race and then having conversations with teams and drivers afterwards, the credibility exists, right? I can say, look, I briefed you guys on this. We talked about this. Here's how the rule is written. Here's how we apply it. And I also have, I'd like to apologize, I think, for any race director and steward that in my driving career, I yelled at and called idiots and told them they were wrong. Because sometimes you miss stuff and sometimes you just don't get it right. And that's hard. And there's a lot going on, right? There are times where, like, you know, even when I was, and this is similar to when I was driving. I used to say when I was driving that by the end of a 500-mile race, physically, I could go run one mile, five miles, whatever. Mentally, I was smoked. Mentally, it was all I could do to get home, have some food, watch, like, the Indy 500, watch the replay Sunday night, crashed out on the couch, chilling with my friends because my brain couldn't handle anymore. Race control is the same way. There are weekends where I walk out. I'm like, whoa, I am tired. And it's all psychological. It's all the mental load of managing inputs, prioritizing things, dealing with this, all thinking like trying to hold the rule book in your head and using it to reference, looking at onboards, like all of the different tools we have and coming to what should be the right decision. And sometimes you get it wrong. You miss little things, but ideally you learn and get better for the next time.

Jessica
Yeah. It sounds like you use a lot of empathy in your styles, which I think I'm sure people appreciate. Do you get a lot of feedback from people, like maybe beginning of the season versus the end of the season of like, thank you for giving this perspective. Or just the fact that you said that you kind of warn people about things, Like you're trying to make sure that they don't get penalties. I mean, how many people do that? You know?

Charlie
Well, it's, and also, again, I'm working in racing series. You know, some of this is client racing. Like Radical Cup is put on by the manufacturer and they are clients and their teams are, you know, this is client racing. And so, you know, when I do work with Zenith Racing, their series there, I was just at Watkins Glen with them and great races. And, and, and in fact, someone in the paddock said to me, he said, you know, it feels like you guys are running this like a pro series, but I can come back to the paddock and hang out with my competitors. Yeah. And, and to me that, that feels great. Right. Like, and if people come at me hot, I don't have a whole lot of time. Like, I honestly, like if, if somebody comes to me and is like, why did I get a pedal? You're an idiot. Like starts, comes off the bat name calling. I just kind of let them. And it's funny. I've learned from a few other people in race controls. I let them blow out, finish everything they got going on. and go okay you done all right do you want to have a conversation or do you feel better enough that you can walk away because like i'm not interested and and i will say i you know i lost my cool once this year um and immediately like backtracked and toned it down and and like figured out had a good conversation from there but if someone comes to me and it's like hey man I really disagree with this penalty I was like okay what'd you see what did I miss you tell me what I missed right because I as a racing driver I was sure race directors missed a bunch of stuff a lot of times I was never wrong just to ask me and so when a driver or a team comes to me and goes I don't and and a lot of times I'll pull up a rule book. I'll pull up this, I'll pull up different things. And I, I tell them, I say, look, we may not always agree. I mean, that's frankly, the only people that are likely happy at the end of a race weekend are the race winners or someone who should have finished 10th and finished third right like if you finished if you had a car for 10th and finish eight you're still not gonna be super happy because you didn't win but if you're like way overachieving you're probably happy but the winner everyone else has something that they could have done better and unless the winner qualified on pole led every session had the fastest lap in the race and and had a perfect weekend that there's still something for them to complain about and as a race director and a steward you're an easy target you're a very easy target yeah they'll tell you about it

Jessica
i think there's a yeah i just started training as a steward i think a year and a half ago something like that uh with scca and so i've kind of been learning about this that there definitely is a perceived kind of us versus them thing and there always will be just even if you don't just coming into it it's just an inherent like cats and dogs whatever you want to call it And so it's nice to hear you kind of explaining this, I think, for people to say that you're not out to get them. I think everyone and Jamie and I, you know, we do this at COTA. We're kind of de facto race directors for track day type of events. We're operating this event. We want everyone to have an awesome time. That is our goal. It is not to be disciplinarians. It's to make them better and to make sure it's a safe event. So I think this is great to kind of hear this point of view for people to say, like, we're not out to get you. Right.

Charlie
And I think actually you just hit on it. My priorities as a race director and as a steward are the safety of my drivers. And I use that ownership very intentionally. Like my, I feel responsible for the safety of my drivers, my teams, the marshals, the safety crew, the, the track services, the people in the paddock and, and my team in race control. And it's not just physical health, right? It's often mental health as well and managing workloads and things like that. But number one priority is the safety of everyone involved. Then I want to create a level playing field for everyone that allows us to put on a really good show that a lot of people see and enjoy. Right? if no one's watching it and no one else is enjoying it, part of why are we doing it? But also like, I want people to feel like the rules were applied the same. And if they misunderstood the rules, they didn't read the rule book. They didn't like, someone's like, Oh, I missed the driver's meeting. And I was like, all right, you great. Just don't screw up. And they were like, wait, what do you mean? And I was like, look, If it wasn't important enough for you to come to the driver's meeting, fine. But I covered some important things. If you have questions, read the briefing notes, read the sporting regulations. Ask me. I'm happy to work with you because I had a guy. He was like, it's like, yeah, I couldn't take my son out of school because a lot of these young drivers are still in school. They they're giving us a hard time about absences. And I was like, I got kids. I know this. Like, we like to travel. I know this. I'm going to miss the driver's briefing. can we come and meet you at the trailer an hour and a half before the first session? We will have read the driver's briefing. We will have talked to our team manager who's there. He's recording it and showing it to us and ask any questions we have. Absolutely. Like I got that text four hours before the driver's meeting. Absolutely. I have all the time in the world for that accommodation. Do I, I want to do that for everybody? No. But again, like one of, one of the medical officers actually add one of the racers i work in he goes yeah he goes uh he goes i had a a mentor once an attending physician when i was in residency and i was training they said yeah you do whatever you want just don't screw it up and it's like kind of that you know when i'm talking to teams it's like hey yeah do whatever you want just don't break a rule so i don't have to penalize you and honestly the best races i think we run in race control are when i see them as a driver former driver as you know someone enjoys loves watching racing is the ones that we throw the green flag there's great racing there's no questionable calls we go we throw the white flag and the checkered flag we get down to the podium and everyone's going that was the best race i've been a part of the guy in eighth and 10 to 15 is like oh man that was so much fun because everyone on the outside sees that yeah

Jamey
so charlie to flip it the other direction you are a race director for uh when we saw you earlier uh gr cup uh the radicals as you mentioned and other kinds of things this year going forward we're going to see you at WEC with the radicals we're gonna see you at formula one which

Charlie
you may not see me at formula one i will say i don't have any plans at the moment ah fair enough but i i it i have been to formula one this year and we can talk about that um i went to the miami event

Jamey
that's cool yes what the question is how does the, your approach as a race director shift based on that kind of environment, the FIA versus IMSA versus other kinds of things? How does that play into the race director role that you're experienced with?

Charlie
It's, it's interesting. Um, cause they're, they're all nuanced and the look well to answer this i sort of i think i need to talk about all the different places i have worked this year um and all the places i have left to work so the seven different series that i've touched i'm full-time race director for toyota gr cup with SRO um and i am full-time race director with Radical Cup. Now the SRO weekends are all SRO except we ran the GR Cups at Arlington with IndyCar. So I was in the same room, literally stepping in and sitting in the seat that Kyle Novak, IndyCar race director, John Maskey, Indy Next race director, had vacated the session right before us sometimes. And I was giving the giving quote unquote, the racetrack back to IndyCar or IndyNext after a GR Cup session. And I know as an IndyCar driver, how important being time sensitive was for those sessions. When you've got a Fox broadcast or even a Fox Sports broadcast and you're dealing with broadcast TV and like you're conscious of that. Radical Cup, we ran at Road America with IndyCar. Same thing. You know, fortunately at the Road America event, my communicator for Radical Cup was the communicator for IndyCar, Mr. Jim Swintal. Jim's a legend and was a starter for a lot of years. Incredible artist as well.

Jessica
And a previous guest on our podcast.

Charlie
Oh, yeah?

Jessica
Yes. This is the record. Two hours long. We talked to him, I think.

Charlie
Well, as a communicator, he knows that you got to get Preston on, who's another communicator that I work with. uh he's preston's when i talk about institutional knowledge about motor sports preston's breadth of institutional knowledge is spectacular um you know but when you've got that same communicator there is that consistency among the the series on the track um and then i also because the full-time race director i mentioned his name just a second ago john maskey for the mclaren trophy at sro was clerk of the course for the miami gp for the f1 weekend he was full-time as clerk i stepped in as a pinch hit race director for mclaren trophy uh we ended up only running one race because of the massive thunderstorm sunday morning and so i got the the one event in but that room is very different right an international room like like weck um formula one i i spent some time as part of prepping for this year and knowing I was going to be a part of different series. I went to Vegas last year and stood in the back of the race control room, got invited by Gary Connolly to the FIA stewards room. So I watched qualifying and it, I kind of ended up with a roof smile, a rye smile at the end of it, uh, looking a little rueful because, you know, and after the session, you know, I said, thank you for letting me sit in and, and gave him my background and how many races I'd done. And they sort of, you know, were like, oh, wow. Well, what'd you think? And I said, I kind of have to laugh because literally if we are at Radical Cup or Formula One at Vegas, you're talking about the same thing. Did the driver slow down enough for the yellow flag? Were conditions changing on wet to dry? Looking at my, like, these are all the same conversations. It like, sometimes you're spending hundreds of millions of dollars and sometimes you may not even be spending a hundred thousand dollars. So it's, you know, it was very interesting, despite how some of the logistics on those rooms working differently. It's all the same. Like racing's racing. And let's be honest, like racing's kind of dumb, right? You don't go anywhere. As a racing driver, my job was to go from point A back to point A a bunch of times, literally travel nowhere faster than smothernut jobs, right? Like when you think about that mindset, it's kind of dumb, but there is no place I feel more alive than at the racetrack and no place I feel more home. And the race control side is, is been really interesting. And being on the timing stand, it was funny being on the timing stand at D and D 500 with Jacob and hearing what was happening from race control, like I could understand what that room looked like and what they were dealing with and what, you know, what the, the communication flow and the workflow was like, so they were like, Oh, they're, they're going to go green this time. And I was like, there is no way they're going green this time. They've still got a truck over there and a truck over there. And they're like, well, what do you mean? I was like, they got to rotate and sure enough they did and i was like and then next time by lights off going green next and they were like i was like because i know what's happening up there i've been up there i've spent time i've been the guy um and so that that experience i think makes broadens my my knowledge base and and being back on pit lane and on the timing stand really helps me get when i get back to race control it's like hey we got to be telling the teams you know more what's going on hey don't be afraid to talk to them like let's not be quiet on the radio if there's stuff they could use let's make sure they're you know because there are times as a team if you don't hear from race control very often you're like is my radio broken like you know all that sort of stuff so so it's okay so gr cup radical cup call strategy at the indy 500 pinch hit for mclaren trophy at miami i pinch hit at a Porsche Sprint Cup Ford Mustang Challenge at Kota. And then I've done two and have one more with the Zenith Racing Series. So did a race director for a 12-hour event in VIR and then two seven-hour races this last weekend in Watkins Glen. And then I have a 12-hour event in Daytona Halloween weekend. So that's my last working scheduled working weekend. And then I've done two, three or four weekends, I can't remember now with USF as a steward sitting alongside Joel Miller, Bo Barfield for those weekends, just sort of Joel runs a great race as race director, full time race director for those series, but then having some experienced stewards with credibility. I raced in that F2000 series like way back in 2003. So, you know, I can say, look, guys, I've been here. Like I won here. I know this, like, listen to what we're saying. This is not the time to fight until you're blowing the face. You may disagree with the call, but learn. So next time and the next, if you want this to be your career, the next hundred times you're in the situation you're not making the same error um and i i really enjoy i think seeing all of the different people in race control and it's like racing is a team sport race control is a team sport and when the teams are humming and there's like man it's it's like an orchestra playing classical music and everyone's stressed and everyone's on the limit and all you hear is beautiful music and all you see is an incredibly well-run safe race that puts on a good show

Jessica
and you as the race director or the conductor of the orchestra that

Charlie
i mean that's the other the other perspective i hadn't really considered until right then i was like yeah it's a little bit you know it's you know the buck stops here and and the buck stops there and you got to make the call and and you're taking all the information in and eventually like it comes down to you and everyone's kind of looking at you and the first time that happened was terrifying right everyone's looking at you and it's like okay are we going back green i look behind me there's no one there and it's like okay yeah nope safety's good marshal's good track's good pace car's good teams are good pit lane's good well let's do the thing let's go back to racing you know and that's that's the best call is when you can be like all right yeah we're going green and and the next flag we're going to pull out is is white the white flag and then the checkered and we're going to put on a really good show here

Jessica
that's awesome charlie thank you so much for joining us this was awesome it was a good glimpse into race control and and the kind of the stewarding and race director side so thank you again really appreciate it and we will see you at WEC i think maybe in about a month

Charlie
yep i will be there race directing radicals uh and i've never been to a uh a world endurance challenge race so I'm looking forward to seeing what WEC's like. I went to Formula One as a fan and a spectator at COTA a few years ago. My sister was still working in Formula One. We're all we're all my mom's the only sane one in the family that doesn't work in racing. And so I was I had a public speaking event in College Station College Station. So I drove over for a day and spent a Saturday. I've been to COTA for the MotoGP event, but I've never seen a WEC event. So I'm looking forward to seeing how it works, not just as a fan from the outside, but then seeing how the nuance is that it's different from a Formula One international event on an endurance race like that. We'll look forward to seeing you there, Charlie Kimball. Thanks for joining us today. Thanks for having me.

Jessica
so that was our interview with charlie kimball and just uh completely exceeded my expectations i knew it was going to be great but this was like a whole nother level like i'm definitely gonna notice this stuff now like next time we work with him which will be later this year we will be in the room with him in race control that is at weck both of us will be in there and so i definitely know that I'm going to be like, oh, that's what he was talking about. And it really just goes to show that it takes a special kind of person. You know, I think a lot of times with any kind of pro athlete, you know, when you retire, you go be a commentator or you do whatever. And I know he didn't mention that, that he did that. Um, but you know, it takes a special kind of person to go into this side of things, which is you're still very active as he talks about, you're still in it in just a different you're on the other side of it but you can tell that he has that personality and that you know to be perfect at this because he has the empathy he doesn't have an ego about it you know if you're gonna be one of those people that loves to just bring the hammer down with penalties and this and that like you're not this is not for you because as he talks about we talked about we ever everyone wants to just to go well they don't take any pleasure in giving penalty they want these people to learn especially you know he talks about a lot of the series that he works with if people don't know i mean we're talking literally they're 14 15 year old kids in a lot of these series you know like they're truly children and they're new to just learning how to be learning to be uh you know in general and so it's like this is like life lessons and stuff like that so what a great personality that that works with that he cares he's not in he he's in it for the right reasons that was kind of what i took away that's great guy great guy a lot of fun to talk to him about it and uh always learn a lot when you're around charlie kimball so yeah great to have him back on the podcast and uh but yeah it's been a busy year for us all jess you have been up to so much stuff let's see if we pick it up from where we left off we both went to miami yeah then we've both sro and then which we talked about yeah and then ferrari challenge you worked for our challenge i did spectated for our challenge my family was in got to meet your folks uh yes and uh we came by and then i did the june sprints at road america and been just doing a lot of planning for whack we've kind of talked about whack we we won't get into the boring stuff with whack right now they'll that'll be a future episode once whack has happened but but you're but you're the race chair now now that's really cool and i will i will tell you that I was sitting next to you, I think it was the weekend of SRO, when you got the official notice that you were going to be race chair. And you had your whole chief staffing knocked out in probably 45 minutes. I tell you, that was one of the most remarkable pieces of efficiency I've ever seen. Watching you sit there and hammer on your phone is like, all right, I got this. I got that. I got my starter. I got my FNC.

Jamey
And it was just, it was a thing of wonder to watch you do that.

Jessica
Well, first of all, I want everyone to know that I was not shirking any duties because I was on the clock at COTA at the time that this email came through. but it truly was I was working CCTV at the time there was nothing to be looking up at the moment but it truly was like when I got the notification it was like let's bring everyone back if we can you know from from our boss Alyssa and I completely agree maybe we add a couple roles here that we kind of had identified I was the deputy chief last year to Sydney of course who's been on the show she taught me everything so it was that was cool to get to kind of move over and so um yeah it was literally just texting everyone from 2025 you in again and everyone said yes and so it was i there wasn't a lot to it on my part it was luckily our amazing team of chiefs and our race control staff um just saying yeah i'm in and so thank you to everybody there and you will be joining us so one of the feedback items from last year that Sydney and I talked about was, um, Fallon, um, Fallon Tucker, who we're all big fans of, um, she was our safety dispatcher last year. She was also doing intervention comp. She had the two radio thing going, which is never an ideal situation, but she nailed it as she always does. We, we need to get her on the show. I think she would be fascinating to talk to. Fallon, you know, we're going to hit you up at whack. Yep. Yep. We will.

um it was just and it wasn't this wasn't anything against her it was like this this is just not fair this needs to be a separate role like interventions is whole whole another thing

and so we agreed it wasn't for any reasons of her not doing what she was supposed to do it was just

no one should have to do two channels if they can avoid it so sydney's like that's some feedback for

next year get a separate intervention communicator and the interesting thing is that for for us you

know we work at coda year-round but we there's maybe four events that utilize interveners and

every single one of them they bring in somebody whether it's Formula One, MotoGP, MotoAmerica

and WEC that's it right and they always bring in people well weck is new right we're adding that

position as a separate thing let's bring one of our own because one of the interesting things is

we get to choose the race control staff for this event.

And I am always going to be pro.

We have a lot of talent at COTA.

Let's keep it in the family if we can.

It's nothing against the hired guns that get brought in.

It's just more of we never get the chance to have our people train on intervention.

And so with you, you were the first one that came to mind because of your background.

And you've talked about this in the past of what you do at MotoGP,

which is not that different.

I don't know if you want to just recap really quickly what you do at MotoGP.

Jamey
What I do at MotoGP is I'm the medical dispatcher. So I do the two radio thing, but in one radio, I'm talking to the safety team and the ambulances. And in my other ear, I'm talking to the 26 ground post medics, paramedics that are stationed at various marshal positions around the track. And then they are the immediate first responders when a rider goes down. They talk to me in my right ear. And then as the information comes in and the cameras bring up the incident on the panels, then I have to relay that information to the chief medical officers of both the circuit and MotoGP, who are sitting next to me in race control. And the immediate call is a code. So a zero means the riders right back up and they're attempting to regain control and restart their bike all the way up to a code three where they're out and we have to do a red flag and roll immediate medical attention. And then I have to manage those situations. So, yeah, I'm lucky to do that role. It's honestly my favorite role that I get to do at COTA every year. It is super stressful. But it is immensely fascinating and satisfying to do. So I really enjoy it. And I'm really looking forward to this.

Jessica
Yeah. So the fact that you have experienced dispatching human pedestrian people on a hot track is, you know, something that you will be doing. And so it just seemed like if we're going to bring in one of our own, this lends itself well. And so the lovely Fallon, of course, is going to be there again this year with us as kind of as a mentor so uh and so i'm there's no doubt in my mind and so i'm really happy that this was able to i hope it's i hope it's a good experience i'm really i'm i'm i would love to train on it yes we will talk about it but um i it's just cool like i said i would i wouldn't mind getting to train on being an intervener or communicator myself we just never get that opportunity right and it's definitely something i've mentioned to the clerks you know i've had the very cool opportunity privilege to get to work in race control for the Formula Ones. It's something I've mentioned. I said, Hey, I know they're doing a lot of cross training. You know, there's so many schedule clashes now of people needing to get like a lot of the team that they bring in for F1, they work for IMSA. So if there's any kind of, you know, schedule clash, then they got to divide and conquer. And I've kind of said that if I can ever train somewhere else, I'd love to. And so I've kind of mentioned that, you know, I would totally train as an intervention communicator it just hasn't happened yet so hopefully this is kind of a foot in the door for for you to be our resident like COTA has an intervener communicator now we never really had

Jamey
No pressure or anything

Jessica
there you go no i think i think it'll be a lot of fun so yeah just been doing a lot of planning for that and that's at the time of this recording in like exactly a month so um yeah so you will definitely do a recap after that but um that's not as exciting as something you have done recently um you know you took a very we were both in europe for different reasons

Jamey
That's right jessica collecting more Hard Rocks as she always does

Jessica
and going to shows but Jamey in europe i think you were there a couple weeks exactly just just went

Jamey
well yeah i was there for exactly one week

Jessica
yeah but anyway um doing a bucket list thing and i think this is going to be something we would love our audience is going to want to hear about so tell us what you did

Jamey
well i got to marshal at Le Mans and it was you know so many people have asked me but then they they kind of i don't know how so i've never really talked about it actually to to people who you know are in our world even the guys the the marshals dakota um so i'll tell you here and you're gonna have to listen to it no just you heard it here first so yeah i i saw a post while we were there at le monde that listed you know weck does these series of posts during each of their events and they list you know all of the marshals and all of the this and all of the that's and one of the numbers that i'll never forget was that for the 2026 Le Mans race the 24 hours of Le Mans there were exactly seven American marshals! Seven! There were something like 2300 total marshals um seven Americans and um Chad Seel was another one

Jessica
oh no way we didn't

Jamey
i i had heard he was was there somebody I guess it was my son Eric might have been somebody else who texted me while I was in France that Chad was posting about being in France too but it's an eight mile track there are 24 you know 24-ish hundred marshals I never bumped into him I looked for him but I you know but I gotta say Jess, just top down, what a magnificent experience. It was everything you would hope it would be. I mean, we were lucky. We got beautiful weather. It was before the huge, huge heat waves that hit France after my departure. There had been one before, and then there was the big, big record setting heat wave after. And I have been in France in a heat wave and it is not fun. They do not believe in air conditioning like we do. And they don't even ice their drinks like we do. It was miserable. And I can only imagine how much worse it would have been with even more record breaking heat. But we were lucky the weekend we were there was mid 80s. One of the great they have magnificent swag. One of the best pieces of swag was this lovely jacket. And you think, why am I getting this in June? Well, we actually needed it early in the mornings on Wednesday and Thursday, because it was pretty chilly. Not for long, but you know, it was, it was actually quite lovely weather, but what an amazing, amazing experience. My, my, I call them my French family. Um, I have never relied on a translator harder than I have in the WhatsApp group that I have been added to, but, um, I was, uh, fortunate enough to be a marshal, just a plain marshal, no captain, no pit lane you know just just one of those guys in orange um at post 34 and post 34 is at the end of the Porsche curves toward the end of the lap as the cars are coming through those long Porsche curves they're well you know for for folks that know the track they know exactly where i'm talking about but our post began at the last kink where it straightens out to go under the bridge that used to be labeled Porsche but was blank this year i guess the check didn't clear and um as the cars are headed toward pit in on the right and the Ford chicane to take them to the start finish straight on the left. And so we're post 34 of 35. Now, what's really fabulous about Le Mans is that being a 24 hour race and being that, you know, you have whole days of qualifying that take place up before there's even a support series called the Road to Le Mans, which is running a sort of a slimmed down LMP or it's the European Le Mans, um, racing series. It's like a slimmed down LMP2. And there's all of these events. The track is hugely busy during that week. And so people are basically marshaling from Monday through the following Sunday. I got there. I flew into France on Tuesday, drove down Tuesday night, and then began camping. And so everything around Le Mans from the marshalling experience is organized so that once you're assigned to a post, and I don't have any idea how that process works. It is quite opaque. But all I know is that I ended up with a, my plan was to to rent a camper van and that's exactly what i did so i got this little very much like a vw bug it wasn't a vw bug but it was very similar to it and i flew in got my camper van you know after an uber ride and then literally drove down to the track and started camping and you know my spot was with my team so everything i did in that event was organized around the people of post 34 which is really fascinating so one of the huge takeaways for me was how differently in europe the 24 hours and i would presume all of the other all of the other European 24 hour WEC series are organized as well is that, you know, in America, like at our upcoming WEC, it's a six hour race. So it can be very different. It's really just one day, but the, in the American world, you apply, you get accepted, you eventually learn what position you're going to be on. You, via email, meet your captain and maybe a couple of the other people, but you're a part of either the FNC team or the intervention team. And that's how it works. You pay attention to the intervention details. You pay attention to the flagging details and you stay in your lane. And no matter what happens, you're always working within either the flagging bubble or the intervention bubble. At Le Mans, I kept asking as we were getting closer and closer to the event, what am I doing? Flagging or intervention? Flagging or intervention? I'm curious. I'm confused. I don't know what we're doing here. And I kept getting this weird kind of confused answer back. Well, it turns out that the reason is that everybody does everything. It's a combined role. It is a combined role. So the way it worked at Le Mans, and I'm sure it's very similar at the Rolex 24 in Daytona too. And I've not worked that one, although I went as a spectator as everyone who's listening to this knows. But when you go, each grouping of marshals, we had 34, 35 marshals in our post, but that was just for our post. And then we had each shift, we had four shifts of, you know, six, seven, eight marshals per shift with the shift captain. And my sponsor, Manu, Manu Burel, was the shift captain. It was his first time being a shift captain at Le Mans. And so there were four different shifts. And then each shift gets assigned a block of hours or a race or an event, you know, time. And then each shift just rotated as a unit. When you get to the station, a few of you linger up there at the front closest to the entry point, which is where we found out, where I found out were the   know, those people that hung there were the interveners. If you were a flagger, then you would walk down about 150 yards, little more than 100 meters. And that's where the flagging position was. And the flagging position had a TSP panel and a big blue flag and a radio. So three people were down there doing the flagging. 30 minutes later, we'd swap. And it was really cool. But the most surprising difference between American and European flagging is that some of those people have been working the same post for over 20 years.

Jessica
Wow.

Jamey
The same post.

Jessica
So they have some kind of a pole. They have some sort of a grandfathered deal or something.

Jamey
Well, it's just that that's the way Le Mans is organized. That may or may not pertain to Spa and the other WEC races. But Le Mans is such an institutionalized piece of France and the way that the French racing community works. And what that does, I mean, I think Americans hearing that would think, oh my gosh, how boring. You're always working the same post. But I'll tell you, the community that it engenders, because you are working with the same people, They can literally finish each other's sentences. They know all the jokes. They know what people are good at and not good at. And, you know, to be very honest, it made it very intimidating to try and fit into that. And I think when I first showed up, because sometimes, you know, they'll bring their friends and they'll figure out ways for their friends to join them. I think that's what they thought I was at the beginning. And then I put on the orange suit and yes, I got an orange suit. And then I think everything changed after that. It was just like, Oh, he's one of us.

Jessica
Yeah. Cause he knows what he's doing. He's not just some rando.

Jamey
Right. Right.

Jessica
And, and win them over.

Jamey
I, I had to earn my spot is the way I prefer to think about it. Um, I had to, you know, they, they don't know me from Adam, you know? And so, and I will tell you my first shift post 34 is a hard blue flag position. I counted, I've been, I've been thinking about, I even have a video of it. I think you see the cars coming for less than a full second, more than a half a second, but less than a full second. And in that time, you have to make the decision because they're kind of crossing as they're headed toward the last kink. And it's that window you get where  you have to figure out whether you throw the blue flag or not. And it is a hard, difficult blue flag to throw. And I messed it up so bad my first time. They must have thought I was just a hopeless marshal because the blue, you know, and of course, I don't speak French, so I'm useless on the radio. I've heard rumors that you can get on the radio as a non-French speaker, but it was like, nope, we're not even going there. So I didn't do a turn on the radio and I was just concentrating on trying not to mess up the blue flags. And it got really challenging. You know, it was really, really hard, but you know, the more you do it, the better you get at it. And, you know, I kind of earned my way in slowly. And I will tell you, there was a precise moment where I felt like I knew I had become part of the team. And that was when, so, so before I tell you that moment, you have to understand that that community I was talking about means that we're all camping together. All of, all of the marshals of this, this post were all camping together in an area. We were actually in the Le Mans go-kart track that was inaugurated by Alain Prost. Um, you know, our COTA go-kart track was inaugurated by Lewis Hamilton. Well, Alain Prost did this go-kart track and we were all there. And of course, post 32 is there, post 33 is there, you know kind of alongside us but you know you know we don't talk to those guys but so we're we're all in this you know we all in the same area but they have set up a tent and they're cooking there's a whole squad of the wives and friends that are cooking and there's a shift of food a whole pantry tent with the food and provisions and of course everybody chips in for all of this stuff, but there is a 24 hour operation going just to support the marshals just from our post. And so, you know, wives are involved and who knows how everybody is related, but there, it literally takes a village. And it was so amazing to see because it was scheduled. You know, there was, there was a time you showed up to eat and they were planned around people going to shift and coming off shift. There was 24 hour coffee and every meal was three courses. It may not have been fancy, but there was an appetizer. There was your entree and there was something nice, be it a cheese plate or something cold or something, you know, fruit or something like that. It was three courses every time you're in France, damn it. It was something, but to get back to that. One of the wives was a marshal. So we have four shift captains. Manu was one, the post captain Thierry Allot, who is just a remarkable human being. Just one of the people who, who just has left this huge impression on me. Thierry is this big giant man. He'll make Eric looks small and just a gem of a human being. Um, Philippe and, um, this last guy named Guillaume. Now, when I met Guillaume, Guillaume is the one who runs all the food pantry and all of that stuff. And he's married to Coco. And so Coco and Guillaume, all of these are shift captains. So they're marshals on top of doing all this other stuff of organizing all of the the stuff behind the scenes and Coco didn't say a word to me she doesn't speak very much English and that was a big barrier you know frankly that that most people don't speak English I speak un peu de français but not much and not well and so you know there was a pretty significant language gap but Coco at one point after my first shift or first or second shift, it was fairly early in the weekend. It was sometime on Friday, maybe early Saturday morning before the race started. She came up to me and she handed me a flag. I was sitting in a chair, just sort of, you know, zoni ng off into the, into the distance. And she hands me a flag and she says, show me how you wave. I was like, excuse me? Show me how you wave. I was like, okay. It just took me so aback because you're always giving me garbage about the way I wave flags and things like that. I didn't.

Jessica
I compliment you. I think you have a good wave.

Jamey
I know. Well, evidently she did too.

Jessica
It's very distinct. Yes.

Jamey
And so that was our bonding moment. Once, once I showed her how to wave and it was just, I was, I was a member of the team and these guys, they would put on Philippe and Thierry would put on skits at lunch. In fact, the podcast listeners won't be able to hear this, but I'm wearing a beret that Philippe wore during a skit that they did where they both came dressed in checker flags. They were wearing checker flag shorts, checker flag tops, checker flag scarves, and checker flag berets. This lovely beret that I'm wearing has a hand-embroidered checker flag on it. And they did this whole skit. I understood about 5% of it, but you know, they did this whole thing. And all of that was inspired because Manu kept telling him, well, he's the guy that waves checkered flag at the US Formula Ones. And so I don't know what they were saying. It was fabulous though, but they came dressed to the checkered nines. And then they did the skit right before the race were to start. Our lunch that we had as a post had most of our marshals there. And we were getting ready to begin the shifts that would start the race. Philippe and Thierry shows up. Philippe is in a full priest gear, you know, costume of a priest. Thierry is dressed as a monk. Even the ladies got involved, the ladies who are taking care of our meals and things like that. They were dressed as nuns. It was absolutely hilarious. And they're doing these skits where they, you know, they go through this whole kind of a farcical service-like thing. And of course, it was very parody and humorous. And even though it was French, we're all just screaming with laughter. And they called the five of us up who have never worked Le Mans. And there were four others and me. and I always knew when they were talking about me because then they'd start throwing in a little bit of English and so they called the four of us up and we're five of us up and we're there and they have this what looked to me to be like an oil pan it was clean but it was full of water and Philippe had a crescent wrench and he's just dousing us with this water

Jessica
Oh, that's a...

Jamey
but it was so funny, you know because we've officially been

Jessica
baptized

Jamey
baptized and brought into the Le Mans fold you know and it was just such a great community you know such an incredible thing to be a part of it because they make it that way. They make it that way for them and they welcome others into it. One of my big takeaways is just how proud the French are of that race you know they are it's just you can see the whole country just oozing with pride because this is Le Mans this is ours and it was so cool and then we were not on for the shifts uh for the start so our our block, our shift group, we came on, I, we had actually, I think the easiest and the best shift we, I called them sundown, sunup because we were, we had the nine o'clock shift where the sun went down. It's far enough North that that was actually sunset at nine o'clock. And then we had the sun up. We went out to, out to a post at the six o'clock. So we had the sun up and those were great shifts to work, but we didn't have to work the brutal overnight ones, nor did we get the start or finish, but that was fine. That was perfectly good. But what not getting start meant was that we could watch. And so we were out there, you know, and if you have not gone to a WEC race, you need to go just because A, it's the best racing you're going to see, but B, the way that the race starts it WEC gets it you know when the cars come around they play Also Sprakh Zarathrustra and it's this perfect sound for the beginning of that kind of race

Jessica
do we need to explain what that it's from 2001

Jamey
2001 the space odyssey it's a it's a classical piece on its own that Stanley Kubrick also used for that, but, uh, but they play that piece of music as the cars are coming around to the start. And if anybody wants to see my video of it, I will show it. It'll never be posted anywhere, but I got a video of the cars going by, but the crowd just rises and applauds. Oh, it's just well

Jessica
isn't it and it's funny because you were telling me that that they do that at our they do that the reason they do it in austin i didn't know because i've never been out i've been locked in the cave that's right which i'm not complaining about but i i'm going to try to sneak out there this year to see

Jamey
you need to it is a great experience and and the first time i noticed it is as our event went our WEC event two years ago um i was the one that got to push the button to start the race and this was you know last year poor Eric my son the chief starter didn't get the chance to do that because it was pouring down rain um but as the cars come around i think it's around the tower maybe you know between 12 and 15 they start playing the music It's not a very long piece of music, but it's perfectly done. And usually if they hit the timing right, the music has that huge crescendo just as they go green. And I heard that music going and I'm like, oh my gosh. And so here they come around 20 and I got to push the button. I mean, yeah, it is a thing of beauty. There are some fabulous Instagram videos of the start of Le Mans with that music playing just to hear how well they do it. It's so cool. And then the race, it's just, you would think it would be, you know, this grueling, loud, terrible experience. It is so much fun. The fans are, you know, camped out and moving around and you'll hear different languages and people from all over the world, you know, are there. I saw people from Japan, people from Poland and people from, you know, everywhere, Aussies, a couple of Kiwis, you know, just people from all over the world at the same event. And, you know, some very, very, very drunk Frenchmen were escorting me to one of my, one of my shifts there for, for sundown, you know, and they, they were enjoying the race extensively. I don't know if they'll remember much of it, but it was just such a fabulous and great experience. And man, if I got to do it every year, I would be just the luckiest person in the world. I mean, to have done it once, as you said, Jess, that is a complete bucket list event. Absolutely unforgettable. And, you know, when you're there, you're just trying to soak it in as much as you can.

Jessica
Oh, definitely. So as you know, a lot of the stuff we talk about on the show is like, oh, I could do that. Like, I think it's, you know, we've talked about with all these other people, like if you really, if you put in the effort, you know, yes, these things are attainable. And so maybe you can talk about, you know, how, how does one get to do this? You know, whether it be the ASN process or whatever, can you maybe elaborate on that?

Jamey
Well, I'm probably a real bad example of how to do it because I'm lucky I had my friend walk me through the process. Now, I want to spend some time talking about this because, yes, I was very lucky. Jess and I are always big fans of get to know the people you're working with. You've heard us mention it on this podcast so many times. mention you know get to know the people you're working with ask them questions engage in conversation if you in my case the way it worked was i was a chief post marshal my first time out on a track for a racing weekend in i can't tell you how long um is for SRO in 2025 at COTA and on my corner was placed a marshal named Emmanuel Burel, who was, uh, he's been many of you listening to this podcast may already know him. He comes to many, he's been to a couple of Miami events. He's been to last year's COTA event. He's coming to this year's COTA event. Um, great guy. He lives in Bordeaux and, you know, he's got his own story. He's, in fact, he'd be a great person to talk to on this podcast too, because, you know, his, his, uh, story is, is remarkable. And, and, uh, you know, and actually Jess to step aside from that real quick, he was directly affected by all those big wildfires in France. Not too long ago, he was evacuated from his house for over a week. And, you know, when you're in that situation, you don't know what you're going to come back to. And so, you know, I mean, that made all this very, very personal. And, but anyway, all's well for him, thankfully. But, you know, so obviously, you know, oh, you're from France. Oh, I'd love to work at Le Mans. How many times do you think he hears that? Every time he's over in America, you know, we're working events everywhere. So, you know, he's, he's up against it because I'm sure that he would love to have other people come and experience this, but he's got to know where to invest his time. You know what I mean? So I was fortunate in that our connection and our communication had been sufficient enough to prove to him whatever that I was worth the push. Because last year at the USGP, Manu, Eric and I all went, we had to show him Buc-ee's. So we took him to the Bastrop Buc-ee's because we had been talking about Buc-ee's, but he hadn't, you know, seen it. So we went to the Bastrop Buc-ee's, a little mini Buc-ee's. And I laugh because Bastrop is pretty big, but it's not nearly as big as the one that I have near me in New Braunfels. But we couldn't do that.

Jessica
It's one of the older Buc-ee's.

Jamey
Yeah it was one of the older Buc-ee's.

Jessica
It's not like a tiny one, but it's, yeah.

Jamey
It's not a mega Buc-ee's either. But anyway, it was sufficient to impress my French friends. So there you go. But we all went, you know, the three of us went out to dinner that night and he looked across the table at me and he said, and this is, you know, October. And he says, are you serious about Le Mans? And I said, yeah, I'm deadly serious about it. And so he said, all right, we'll do this. And so, you know, it had been basically a full year of just talking to him and, you know, doing all these things and working together in this various capacities. And so he got me in. So I really can't say, well, you do this. I will tell you that the generic way an American approaches Le Mans is to look for what's called the ACO. It stands for French. It's the Automobile Club Organization. I don't know what it stands for because it's all in French. but it's basically it's the AC the the SCCA version of France well of Le Mans specifically I don't know what else they do but it's specifically a club and you can join it um many marshals I know are members of ACO but you don't have to be but being in that club gets you in that mailing list. And that's where you, that's where I think it goes. Or in my case, you have to know somebody. And so that's, that's how I got in. And the fact that there are only seven marshals tells me that it's hard to get into without knowing somebody. So, you know, it's something of a challenge. That said, once you get in, once they send you all that French paperwork that doesn't mention your name on it. And you're just trusting that you're in.

Jessica
You can sign your life away.

Jamey
Yeah. And you're kind of like, well, I hope, uh, I hope this is what I hope, you know, what I'm told it means, cause I'm going to buy an airline ticket now to France. But, um, you, once you do that, you have to get your ASN letter and you have to make sure that your license will all be covered all the way through the event. I had to actually renew my license, my SCCA license twice in order to be able to do that, you know, because, uh, my license, um, would have renewed before the event. So, you know, little things like that, the letters, you know, nothing major takes about a week, 10 days to get, um, you email roadracing at scca.com and then they email ACCUS and then ACCUS emails you the letter and that's what you submit.

And I don't know if we've ever gone into detail what this is.

Jessica
Essentially, it is ACCUS, which we've talked about on our George Silberman episode. It's the sanctioning body, for lack of a better term, of the United States saying, we're okay with this person. We're okay with recommending this person.

Jamey
It's called the no objections letter.

Jessica
Yes. It's pretty much just, and it's very basic. I requested one once as well, just on the off chance I was looking into doing an international right and it literally just says you know jessica althoff is a member of you know this these are the license she holds we have no objections to her representing the United States or whatever in your event or whatever that's and it it's like three sentences and that's it and it's signed by those people they like Jamey was saying it takes maybe a week but that is required and that is something like you know we talked about the race chair thing i've been doing like all of our international applicants i have to obtain those from the international marshals that want to come work wet right and sometimes you know what we'll do is we'll even we'll confirm that those letters are legit you know with the with the organizing body now that's something we've been doing with Las Vegas i'm the deputy one of the deputy race chairs for Las Vegas this year and that's one of the things is like we have to we got our list of names for all the internationals that want to come work this event they gave us a letter we're still going to make sure this letter is real and so Ciera who's the race chair would she reached out to the ASNs of like Canada hey here's a list of all the Canadian marshals can you confirm that you wrote letters for these people and they'll come back and say yep because it's it's literally a pdf someone could totally have clod or chat gpt make one of those easily so it's always a good idea to confirm as well so sorry for the tangent. I wanted to explain that for people that are interested.

Jamey
It is an important piece because I think a lot of Americans don't know how but want to know because they want to go work these other kinds of events. And I had to learn all this going through it. But then once all the paperwork got submitted and then I was, I guess, accepted. All this is happening through WhatsApp, by the way. And then, you know, about a week or two before the event, I had to take an FIA course, you know, an online course about intervention and, you know, the general principles of how to, you know, the stuff that you have to do to sign off to be a marshal for an FIA event. I don't know if they do them in America. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, basically.

Jessica
Marshaling 101 little tests kind of a thing.

Jamey
And then one day from via email, I get this presentation sent to me. I don't know who created it. I don't know if it was created by the post chief, Thierry Allot. I don't know if it was created by ACO. Or I don't know if it was created by FIA. I don't think it was FIA because it didn't have a lot of FIA junk on it. Like, you know, they're very typically logo heavy. Yeah. But I got a 57-page presentation, all in French, about how to do everything.

Jessica
Oh, wow.

Jamey
Every little piece of information I would need, including how to operate the scorpion. I was thinking to myself, as I'm reading, the scorpions are a French version of the telehandler. You know, the car that lifts the cars. Yeah, the high lift. I was thinking, boy, I sure hope I don't have to run the Scorpion. Turned out we did not. There was a dedicated driver. And that Scorpion driver had been in that same post for generations. You know, it's crazy, you know, how differently it's organized. But that basically answered my question. You know, it talked about flagging. It talked about intervention. It talked about safety. It talked about camping. It talked about everything. And so it turned out to be quite a great guide. And, you know, that probably served me more than any other single document to get ready for it. But the rest is just having a spirit of an adventure and, you know, going and throwing yourself into it and living the experience like a French marshal would, you know.

Jessica
Yeah.

Jamey
And it was absolutely worth every single penny, all the challenges it threw up at me. Absolutely one of the top experiences of my life at the very end of the race. Absolutely, five stars would recommend. At the very end of the race, I don't know whether it's an official thing. I don't think it's official the more I think about it. but is just sort of a traditional thing is that people from our post go to the leading car manufacturers and they collect flags and the winning car in this year it was Toyota's Kamui Kobayashi I think it was his name I could be getting his name wrong but he won the race the overall winner of Le Mans and whether by tradition or by institution post 34 is the one that gets to give the flag to the driver to carry down pit lane for their winning team

Jessica
like out the window like hold out the window like out the window lap thing

Jamey
yeah and this year that honor fell to me

Jessica
Oh, that's so cool.

Jamey
So they pulled me aside. They pulled me aside after our final shift. And they said, we'd like you to give the flag to the driver. And I was like, oh, wow. You know, that's really cool. I had no idea how that went down. So there's tons of videos. It's on my Instagram. Everybody. At the end of the race, the most fun experience of all was something that will make every track lawyer in America absolutely wet their bed was all of the marshals are all on the track, just like the Tour de France. You know how in the Tour de France, you know, the climbers are going up and they're barely, that's what driving, that's what driving through the marshals is like at Le Mans. I mean, they are on track and they are up close and in some cases banging on the car and everyone's waving flags. The drivers, I don't know if they love it or hate it. You know, they're probably exhausted. As a marshal standing there doing that, I'm just thinking, oh, they'd never let us do this in America. They'd never let us do this in America, you know. And then of course, you know, they bring the car to the stop and, you know, the doors open and I get to hit the video. It looks like I'm trying to stab the driver because I'm just dropping this flag down in there, but he graciously accepted it and, you know, kind of waved all of us and then took off. And Toyota Racing actually released the in-car video of him talking about all the Toyota flags as they're coming in. And then just as, just then you see, you know, all of our marshals surrounding the car and me giving him the flag. And that was actually posted on Toyota's, uh, website after the the win too so that was really remarkable too of course that was

Jessica
what a nice gesture

Jamey
yeah it was a great great gesture too and there there's um at Le Mans you'll notice um if you drive in like the video game le mans ultimate or if you watch the race you'll notice that there's these little signs for every every um post you know every corner every sector of the track has its marker displayed next to the track. So I guess for visual reference, so that, you know, the, either the drivers or the teams or the video audience, you know, the TV audience will know what post they're at. One of the members of our post ran up, grabbed ours, brought it back, many, not all, but many of the, the marshals signed it and they gave it to me. So I have that sitting in my sim room over there and it's all signed and it was fun getting it back I had to ship it because it was not gonna fit in the suitcase and it was not gonna fit in the overhead so I was like you know what I'm just gonna ship it so I gave it to the guy at DHL in one of the little cities I was driving through on the way back to Paris and he's like what's inside I said foam yeah it's not a box that opens it's just foam and so anyway they did a great job of wrapping it and it's now got a proud spot in my uh in my racing my little race room so

Jessica
that's so cool and you know i think that was a good you know kind of snapshot of of what you've experienced and and you know we kind of started this conversation of how how can someone else do this now granted there might be people that think you're nepo baby because of your connection but here's the thing but here's the thing um network when you're at these things i i've worked you know especially ppg we've talked about ppg on this and a million times we've had Nadja and Toni that team specifically and i've worked with them there's a ton of international marshals that work that come and i don't know like it seems like per capita or whatever you want to call it the percentage is is that there's a big chunk of people that come from all over the world and i've had people you know you work with them you work your ass off you do a good job you show you're worthy because as we've also said is that training is such a such an important thing in a lot of other countries that we maybe are not as good about right so you know if you can impress these people you know i've had multiple invitations from international marshals if you ever want to come work a race in my home track in you name it Silverstone Melbourne whatever i've had people tell me that you just say the word and i will so that's i think what maybe we should emphasize is that you know definitely go meet people you know not only just to to for your own personal gain there's such an amazing community out there of people that you're gonna meet and you're always gonna learn something so i just wanted to kind of say that of introduce yourself if you're at a race and you don't know anyone go just start up a You never know who you might meet or and the people you work with. And it always just another reason is if you do aspire to do this and you do end up getting placed on a post with someone from another country. Look at that. That might be your in. And and, you know, this is something that I've talked about with other people, too. Like, it'd be cool to do some sort of exchange student program, so to speak, of like, you know what? If you I used to host some of our Scottish marshals a few times. you know i got two guest rooms sure come stay with me if it saves you some money great and for a while it worked i had to kind of close the hotel because of just other it was a lot for a race week especially because my duties have changed and i have different hours but like you know what i i i was happy to do it and i think a lot of people it's like open your door there's going to be so many cool people that you might, you know, a new friend or whatever. And, and, you know, it helps them out. And then if you ever want to do the same, you know what, I bet you, you could probably go stay with them at their home track, maybe.

Jamey
Or they'll help you figure it all out.

Jessica
Exactly.

Jamey
Exactly what happened to me. I would have never known how to navigate that whole thing, both getting in. And then just when you get to Le Mans, it's this giant facility. Where's marshal check-in? How does that work? Yeah. Would have had no idea had it not been for friends on the ground. So, and it's all networking. You have to, there's this big, wonderful world of racing out there and it happens all over the world and it's not that different i mean there's differences but it's not that different you just have to tell people that you're willing to be a part of it and the way you the way you begin that process is you be an ace marshal at home and let the internationals realize okay this is a good marshal and i'm happy to invite them because believe me they're vetting who they are willing to spend the energy on

Jessica
oh especially and yeah and if you had showed up and like completely were terrible that's going to reflect poorly upon Emmanuel right yeah so it's it and i've had that happen before like i've recommended people for things and they you know i only do it if they i can i've witnessed them and they they were great it's not a favoritism thing it's like you got to think about if i recommend this person are they going to let me down you like because i don't want that on me you know absolutely um and i i take it very seriously like the times that i have recommended people to other teams of like you know what this person has shown that they know what they're doing and they're reliable they show up they're on time they're not screwing around whatever and so i think that's just another reason like not that we don't want you we always want people working hard all the time but you never know who might be watching you.

Jamey
That's exactly right.

Jessica
When you're working out there. And like, just keep that in mind that there might be secret shoppers out there kind of saying like, Oh, so if that's ever something you want to do, you know, whether it's working another race domestically or abroad, you know, definitely do not hesitate. You know, if you need to get little cards made, whatever exchange info with these people, WhatsApp is huge. I never even knew what WhatsApp was until all of this. And there's so, and it's very, you know, useful in a lot of ways.

Jamey
And, um, just a reminder WhatsApp has a built-in translate function. You may have to download your languages, but yeah, that's everything. I am learning a lot of colloquial French, let me tell you. Texting French, I've never heard as many. You know, the French are very proud of their language, but I have never heard so many shortenings, so many colloquialisms. There was far more than I would have expected. They don't speak formal French. They speak casual, fast French. so it's very different sometimes the translators worked hard to keep up but yeah anyway

Jessica
so are you did you recruit any of your fellow post marshals to come work one of our races

Jamey
in 2027 there is a whole group of those marshals that want to come to COTA Thierry especially Thierry Thierry is all about coming to COTA and I've said any time. So, um, he has made a, he has made a statement that he wants to come to COTA in 2027 for WEC. And I'm like, just understand this is not Le Mans. It's a whole different experience, but you are welcome. And, uh, I will, I will, uh, have the time of my life that weekend if he comes and gets to see our version of limon the lone style oh yeah that will be that will be an absolute epic weekend

Jessica
that would be interesting because i i am curious to see i you know what they all the theatrics especially for a Formula One like when we worked when i was a starter with you at USGP two years ago you know like i mean it is very texas it's like they bring at the Dallas Cowboy cheerleaders you have a longhorn walking the cattle actually an actual like it's not a cow whatever but yeah yeah yeah she's gonna kill me she's gonna be like oh my god you know the difference you know what i mean i would call it a cow but i'm not cattle yes cattle um we got the ut marching band you know the dallas cowboys you know they're playing thunderstruck by acdc that mentions texas i think that's a cowboy cheerleader thing maybe i don't know but yes The pageantry is like in full force. And I, and you know, with all this, so I'm curious to know if it's that hardcore at the international races, feel free to email us and let us know if that's the case. But on the front straight, it is just full blown, like just all the tricks up their sleeve to really make it. So yeah, no, anyone internationally listening, you know, send us an email if you ever are interested, You know, we can, once again, we are part of why we like to do this is getting the word out of how, how to get into the, how to do these things, because that was one of the things like when I first joined the SCCA and got involved, like, how do you do this? How do you do a license upgrade? Whatever we want to make that available, like then not be such an esoteric thing. So if you have any questions about how to do any of that, please don't hesitate to reach out. What is our email address again?

Jamey
Podcast at tracksidepodcast.com.

Jessica
Thank you. And I need to get access to that one of these days. Yeah, I know. I need to do that.

Jamey
I need to make it work. I've got the email address. I've just not sat down to figure it all out and get it all out. Hopefully we don't have like 5,000 emails in there. I can receive email. I just can't do anything with it. I don't think we're that popular. I'm a lousy sysadmin, but I'll get Claude to help me figure it all out.

Jessica
There you go. But yeah, what a cool story. I'm so thrilled to hear that you had a good time. I may not have the passion for racing like you do, but I've had those exact moments you've described of like, I can't believe this is real in my other life with my music trips or whatever you want to call it. And I understand how important they are, and especially in this day and age when the robots are coming for us. So if there's anything you want to do, I'm sure my family thinks I'm a quack. If there's anything you are wanting to do, do it, you know, it just do it now. So definitely if we can persuade you to go on an adventure, we're very good at that. So you just come see us. There you go.

Jamey
We'll answer your questions to the ability that we can. But, you know, and that's the cool thing is a bunch of our COTA marshals have gone to Marshall in other places. You know, we've had them go to Silverstone and Brazil and Mexico and Canada and, you know, in other places. So if we don't know the answer to your question, we might know somebody that does. So, you know, obviously get in touch with us at podcast at tracksidepodcast.com and, you know, spread the information. You know, share this podcast episode with people who you know that think what you do is the coolest thing in the world and would love to do it, too. That's who this podcast is for and kind of why we, why we do it. We, we love doing this kind of behind the scenes stuff. And so, you know, we are lucky enough that many of you do too.

Jessica
Yeah. Awesome. Well, this has been fun. Thank you again to Charlie for joining us.

Jamey
Absolutely.

Jessica
It was really awesome talking to him and we look forward to seeing him again soon. And yeah. All right. Well, we'll, we'll, we'll wrap it up then, huh?

Jamey
Yeah. I'll let you know that this podcast is copyrighted of its owners and creators. It's Jess and I. And though Jess and I are employed by Circuit of the Americas, nothing we say represents an official opinion of or endorsement from the circuit or any of their clients or series we might mention, those opinions being our own. So glad to be back in the swing of things with the podcast. We promise we won't have the summer disappear. It's busy in the rest of the country, but it's kind of slow in Texas It's just so hot.

So that's the other thing that we'll say about it. But anyway, hope you all are well.

And we will see you again on another episode of Trackside the Podcast.

Yes.